I couldn't go through with it. I couldn't get into the dialogue which felt unrealistic to me considering the circumstances. It felt like a script for an Indiana Jones movie with the casual banter going on after someone's dad just died.

Too many references without choices as well. Reading from a reference to another reference without having any choices at all was disappointing to me. It felt linear at times and sort of like reading a book as opposed to being a participant in the story.

Still congratulations on writing the whole thing. Just not my cup of tea, not saying it's a not a good book.

Robert Douglas
Fri Jan 3 17:04:48 2020

Hi Etienne,
Sorry you didn't like the style of dialogue. Being an Indiana Jones fan (right from very beginning when Raiders was released in 1981) I'll take that as a compliment. Bear in mind that the gamebooks on this list automatically take into account what items/notes the player came across; as you pointed out there might be half a dozen references to read through before presenting you with a proper (click) choice of action/direction/test roll. TCOD's admittedly more linear design doesn't exactly follow a multi-branch map that you might find in, say, 'Scorpion Swamp' or the recent 'Gates of Death'. If you prefer the typical, old-school style of a gamebook, there is always the Downloads Section as an option. However, good news is that the gamebook I'm currently working on might more suit your tastes as regards dialled down dialogue, a simpler narrative, and a greater number of choices :)

Etienne
Sat Jan 4 16:01:44 2020

Well it’s a matter of personal preferences. I think I had some expectations of something similar to House of Hell since it’s related. House of Hell had very little humor (if any) and focused on setting up a grim atmosphere.

I think I would’ve reacted differently if your book wasn’t somehow linked to HoH. I think an Indiana Jonesesque dialogue works nicely in an action/adventure context but in this case I believe this kind of character interaction does a disservice to anything horror-related.

Again, it depends what you’re going for. I can’t feel any immersion if the main character reacts in an unrealistic fashion. I think it’s perhaps why the communication of protagonists in ff games is often passive as opposed to actual text quotes because it facilitates immersion.

We all have ideas as to what gamebooks *should* be. I personally could never get into « Wrong Way Go Back » because of the comedic overtone. It’s not for me but I’m not saying it’s bad, it’s not what I’m looking for.

I think predictability is also a big element of immersion. Giving choices which are things someone in a certain situation would likely do. If the reaction is unthinkable or counter-intuitive, immersion is gone.

As for the amount of choices, I think that’s a key element when it comes to game books. A lot of realistic choices which provide a lot of different outcomes. As a player, I expect to take part in the story as opposed to passively being told what happens as this the nature of a book or novella.

I think if someone is very attached to the telling of a very specific story, it’s sometimes better to opt not to use the gamebook format. It allows the development of characters as the writer intends to as opposed to being based on the player’s decision.

I think a lack of agency hinders immersion, involvement and ultimately fun. In your gamebook, I could hardly continue when the protagonist would use quips while being pursued by crazed cultists. No one would ever react like that. I think running away in fear would be what most people would do, saving their breath to save their lives as opposed to saying: « I’ll take my chances! »

I’m writing all of this as feedback for your next creation. Feel free to dismiss my message, it’s just my opinion after all.

Robert Douglas
Sat Jan 4 16:35:06 2020

Okay, thanks for the response and feedback :)

Rob Mon Apr 20 16:22:15 2020	Very well written and lengthy. Really enjoying it. Its would be great to find a way to identify longer novels in the home screen. This book feels like a real luxury amongst the shorter ones.
	The lengths of all the gamebooks are shown here.

YARD
Thu Sep 21 16:21:07 2023
Star - optimum ending reached

I have played this right after a House of Horror, almost as a double feature of a sort. After all, both are related to the same canon gamebook, House of Hell.

I'll say that reading the comments here after beating this might be the most mystified I have ever felt on here. One reason was all the discussion about a really simple puzzle early on, (though it seems like it used to be worse than it is right now?) and effectively nothing about everything else in those early stretches. To me, this work is almost every bit as as the House of Horror is good, and nearly everything redeeming about it comes way down the line. The background and early refs in this one are effectively the absolute worst out of every gamebook I have seen here - and by now, that's nearly all of them.

For starters, we literally do not know anything about his friends, Scott and Jimmy from that background and have no idea what that "important meeting" at a ruined house was meant to be about. All we see is the player character doing something obviously idiotic, yet we are supposed to care? The later revelation that they were all crims somewhat explains the venue, yet it effectively means that the protagonist blurted out the location of their secret criminal meeting to everybody at the pub, for zero good reason, so it at best replaces one idiocy with another. We never really learn why those two decided to pick that specific spot, or why they chose to arrive there days earlier, so all of Jimmy's whining rings particularly hollow.

Then, FF struggles to integrate guns at the best of times, for sure, but the approach here is even more arbitrary than that of Bodies in the Docks. The first proper action scene, at 181, is an accidental masterclass in incoherence. At the start, we are told that there are "a dozen" cultists (i.e. 12 at most, including the leader.) Yet, by the time we run past ALL OF THEM to the Land Rover, there are only two in the vicinity and a dog (which we shoot through our own windscreen, yet it apparently does not die.) We shoot one point-blank, the other one manages to struggle for control of the shotgun, the missed shot from shatters the leg of what is apparently another acolyte (since the first one would already be dead?).

Then, you somehow manage to hold onto the shotgun with one hand (even while the acolyte is pulling at it with two?) as you are unsheathing a knife that is now at your belt (even though the preceding ref 98 only mentions it being in your bag, and doesn’t describe you clipping it on) and stabbing with it. Then, you are pushing that guy who is heavily wounded in the stomach into a charging acolyte. (Which charging acolyte? Presumably not the one you shot point-blank or the one whose leg was shattered) So, we somehow go from dozen cultists, to two, to at least four, of whom three would be dead or incapacitated by them (while the high priest is just...forgotten about). Further, you STILL have 13 shotgun shells left at that point - more than there are cultists you could see, and apparently, none of them had any guns! Yet, instead of doing the reasonable thing and shooting them all, you "keep the smoking barrel trained in their general direction whilst darting back towards the relative safety of the ruins". Relative safety FROM WHAT?! If you are the only one who has the gun, for whatever reason, (since nobody shot at you while you were running to Land Rover in the first place - although some cultists do use guns later on), then out in the open you have range to use it. Someone had already tried to grab at your gun once, and the ruins would only give more chances to do just that.

This incredible looseness with setting out the parameters of each encounter (something which the subsequent Robert Douglas works were MUCH better at), makes the chase scenes afterwards feel nonsensical. You, a guy with a shotgun, and Jimmy, can end up hiding in a skull pit from three guys and a demon dog (of course, if you fail, you suddenly get instakilled with a crossbow). There's also a passageway narrow enough for you to shoot at them one by one if you tried - but you have to flee regardless. Yet, later on, you HAVE to fight six guys at once in melee, in the darkness, and you apparently win. It's just totally nonsensical.

Some, initial, aversion to killing COULD help explain this: after all, a criminal doesn't mean a murderer (and committing a lone murder and standing and shooting at a crowd are different things anyway). It doesn't, though, since that's the one thing the protagonist clearly DOESN'T feel. It takes until ref 10, more than halfway into the story, for our character to make ANY comment about anyone he just killed - and it's about the least sympathetic torturer cultist, to (justifiably) say he doesn't care. If you avoid taking a shotgun (you shouldn't) you can get a scene where he beats a cultist to death with a flashlight, with a hilarious lack of emotion.

YARD
Thu Sep 21 17:16:22 2023

For that matter, that scene is also a hot mess: ref 265 says you have a torch from the start, yet you instead fight with a torch the cultist dropped, after trying to stab (?) you with it, instead of just attacking with a dagger immediately, like he does after losing the torch anyway. (And no, I have to assume the torch was electric, since you get the same reference to "flickering" regardless of whether or not you have a flashlight, and while holding both a shotgun and a flashlight is iffy, I don't even want to think about the mechanics of holding a shotgun and a wooden torch.)

Meanwhile, if you have a shotgun, then the only reason the torturer survives for long enough to be killed later on (unless you fail a sudden LUCK and SKILL check, which is all too possible, and one of the biggest barriers to lower-stat characters here) is because he manages to survive a shotgun blast by hiding behind a brazier then kicking it in your direction. Apparently, a brazier is not only bulletproof, but isn't going to wobble and spill any hot coals after getting shot at whatsoever, unlike when it's kicked. Similarly, your shotgun apparently has a range of 6 meters or so (I'll let you look up real-life ranges yourself) as you do not even TRY to shoot at a high priest when he is close enough to converse with you without difficulty. As I said, the narrative logic around firearms didn't seem to go remotely beyond "blasting cultists with big gun cool!" You do have to go through a SKILL check every time you shoot, though, just like in Bodies in the Docks (wouldn't be surprised if it was a direct inspiration.) The difference is that Bodies in the Docks didn't have scenes like ref 338 here

SPOILER

END SPOILER

- ALL OF WHICH happens without a single skill check. The difference between that, and a skill check fest that is the shootout with two fireball-flinging flying demons (who somehow continue to toss two fireballs at once, which must be dodged individually, even AFTER you destroyed one of them already) is very apparent. This doesn't have THAT big of an issue with long choice-free stretches when compared to most other Douglas' works, but these "pure Hollywood" refs where the character suddenly stops needing the dice and carries out feats many times more complex than the ones he just needed skill checks moments earlier, on autopilot, are incredibly out of place.

It doesn't help that pretty much as soon as you are out of the mansion's ruins (which happens quite quickly), and find characters in addition to Jimmy, the dialogue is either exposition or incredibly cringeworthy sub-Whedonite banter all the time. Jimmy at first stands in place and has a breakdown over father's death while cultists are trying to break through the door, then forgets effectively ALL about it and his personality is reduced to saying "bonnie" in EVERY OTHER SENTENCE. Unfortunately, out of the two paths to victory, it is the far more obvious one that brings you into contact with more people and forces you to suffer through far more dialogue and plot holes. The other path is just much, much better narratively, though it is sadly much less hospitable to characters without max SKILL, and still has some weirdness (317 instakills you even if you DO have the weapon which works in all the "adjacent" refs?)

YARD
Thu Sep 21 17:30:51 2023

On the other hand, the "main path" is just completely illogical. To wit:

SPOILER

Interactions with the police are nonsensical. Priest's notes are triumphantly presented as "hard evidence", yet in no court of law would those scribbles count as anything of a sort. All they seem to contain is a secondhand claim to "hearing moans and screams" from Drumer's mansion on moonlit nights, and an admission to robbing from a museum. It's mystifying why the cultist detective is so stumped by them and settles for calling them a forgery, rather than dismissing it all as vague nonsense from a delusional, thieving clergyman?

For that matter, why wouldn't the detective press a point that if your story is true, you have just admitted that you only drove into town to attend a meeting for unlawful purposes, and to carrying lockpicks and what are likely unregistered firearms, and you should all be arrested just for that?

Or, if he wanted to go further, you have personally admitted to shooting several people, one of your friends admitted to fatally riding over two more, and you had beaten/stabbed another man to death mere hours ago on your way to the scene? Satanism was not illegal even in the 1980s (even protected under freedom of religion, for that matter); murder was and is, and there's zero proof any of it was in self-defence, adhered to reasonable force standards, etc. If the Detective arrests all of them for that (and accuses the Inspector of sympathizing with vigilantism if he tries to intervene), then sure, the investigation would also discover the torture chamber and all the remains in the ruins sooner or later, but if the ritual is literally imminent, then so what? The cult would have already won by then, and any time the police spend in the ruins pulls them away from looking in the direction of the castle.

And if you attempt to infiltrate the building, your supposedly experienced crim apparently doesn't even bother to wear a mask beforehand, as seen at 332. Likewise, you knock out two forensics, then automatically accept a ride from the police (!), and they somehow do not find their colleagues, decide that those weird men are prime suspects and contact the team in the very car you are in?

END SPOILER

Then again,

SPOILER

END SPOILER

YARD
Thu Sep 21 17:50:58 2023

And of course, proofreading.

SPOILER

END SPOILER

Robert Douglas
Thu Sep 21 21:23:53 2023

Hello YARD,

Thanks for giving The Curse of Drumer a read. It's good to see enthusiasm from fellow fans, and constructive criticism is indeed welcome, in particular regarding gameplay and mechanics. It is important to get a balance. However, speaking of balance, you do yourself need to observe a certain degree of decorum with far less frustration when listing aspects which need work or improvement.

While I do understand your reading TCOD required several hours of your time, please remember planning and writing a standard 400-ref gamebook is at least ten times that amount. Furthermore, while it is done voluntarily, as a hobby, authors contributing to this website are not paid, unlike those within FF, Lone Wolf, and other series. While I'm absolutely fine with that, barbed reviews sting far more on here than on, for example, an Amazon listing - because at least the author is getting paid for their time and trouble. And a customer has a right to feel annoyed when spending a fiver or so on a book they ended up not enjoying. But even world-famous, wealthy paid artists (authors, illustrators, actors, rocks stars, etc) can struggle with difficult reviews. The late, great comedian Les Dawson mentioned in an interview that, during his early stage years, he received some hurtful comments - when his only 'crime' was to make people laugh - and not many were supportive nor positive towards his career in any way.

That you were 'mystified' by comments made by other FF fans in this thread, the answer is really quite simple: most of them enjoyed TCOD for what it was, while you clearly didn't. Fair enough! But if you can do any better, then please, go ahead and show us how it's done....

Robert Douglas
Thu Sep 21 22:09:16 2023

Hi YARD,

I'd also like to point out some flaws in the points you made throughout the second paragraph:

SPOILER

1. The backgrounds to both Scott and Jimmy are not so plot important. TCOD is not about their entire life stories. 2. We do learn - confirmed later on during the dialogue with High Priest Isaacson - that they are petty criminals who were poking around in the ruins of a once old, possibly wealthy estate. Word of the great fire got around and somehow reached their ears. Again, it should be enough that they just happened to be in the area at the right time, or heard about it on or in the local news. Both saw the opportunity to hunt for antiques, had already made a start but shifting the heavy door required extra tools and expertise. Both men knew the player was the man for the job. However, by the time he does arrive, both Scott and Jimmy have incurred the wrath of the Brotherhood and been captured. 3. The player character has arranged to meet the friends at the ruins. Why is that idiotic? For the time being, he is unaware of the demonic dangers - as were his friends before being captured. Perhaps they didn't know the full truth of their plight? That they were simply at the mercy of a mad cult with no real power? Who can say? Even the author themself doesn't ponder over every little detail. However, one clue is: how does Jimmy react to the animated zombies and skeletons? Has he (and Scott) seen similar things already? 4. Although the Hero - himself a criminal - 'blurts' out the planned meeting location, then why should it matter? How would the locals know he is of criminal background? Strange as it sounds, he could simply be a tourist keen on exploring the ruins, a contractor hired to assess the damaged site for clearance, or even a photographer going after that special atmospheric location. And even if they suspect he's up to no good, then how are they going to respond to a possible threat to the Drumer estate? Indeed, why should they care about the preservation of Drumer's valuables when obviously they care more for the life and soul of a human being who so far has done them no harm? Saying it out loud shocks them, yet the player character is straight up being honest; attempting to hide the truth or simply shrug and stay silent can backfire with an adverse effect. Furthermore, he is a stranger to those parts, and needs directions. It is also equally possible that they suspect he is a friend of Drumer's, come to visit, but again: saying it out loud at least calms their suspicions. Even if the player was followed by some of the curious locals, what are they going to find? The player cursing and shouting as he makes his way down into the old cellar; hardly very inconspicuous. The meeting wasn't secret because, if anybody had followed them, they would have been chatting in a wide open space, or even the confines of the landrover. If the conversation was overheard, then it would be about looting the ruined house of Drumer, and nothing whatsoever regarding demonic worship or raising Drumer himself. Again, Terry might have followed the player from the Goat and Knife there and then - but then that wouldn't have made exciting material. Besides which, Terry (having already warned the player character who was too stubborn to listen) meanwhile went to Richard for his help in rescuing the Hero and Jimmy, by which time during the graveyard scene.

END SPOILER

YARD
Fri Sep 22 19:35:26 2023

Hi!

And well, this was quite fast. By now, I went through every other one of your digitized adventures on here, sometimes over a month ago - but this is the very first time I receive a reply, and only hours later.

Yes, writing requires time and effort. So do a lot of things. By now, there are tens of thousands of video games you can download for free - and I am NOT talking about piracy or even abandonware. Often, their creators had to think about code, writing, art and music all at once. There's also the effort that goes into assembling even a short live-action film, or a full-length machinima, and many, many people have done those things for free as well. Let's just move on.

With your second response, I would like to mention theory of mind, if I may.

SPOILER

That is, the ability to accurately judge what a person would see and know at any given point, and make your own decisions based on that. I think this goes to the root of where I find issue with the scene.

1) As a reader, the main thing I know at the outset is that the player character obviously has to get to where he shouldn't for one reason or another - else there's not much of a story, but those reasons can still be good or bad, and it's up to the writing of the scene to make the difference. Here, your character effectively insults well-intentioned villagers there and in ref 1, which instantly creates a negative impression. In horror movies, characters who behave like that usually get themselves killed soon after.

If I am to believe that him driving to that ruin after everyone tells him not to go is worthwhile then yes, giving us a single reason to care about Scott and Jimmy from the outset, to know why it's worth risking life over them, is not a bad idea. As a writer, you might care about them as your creations by default, but I, a reader, do not.

2) Here is the really big inconsistency between player character's knowledge and behaviour.

"Indeed, why should they care about the preservation of Drumer's valuables when obviously they care more for the life and soul of a human being who so far has done them no harm? "

This is the thing. He has NO way to know what any of the patrons "obviously" care about until AFTER he had already revealed where he's going to them. As an out-of-towner, for all that he knows, people in the tavern could well be fans of the "late" Earl and NOT take kindly to him messing about there. (In fact, with how large the cult apparently is, it seems all-but-inevitable that cult members would have visited the place before, probably repeatedly (its name making itself appear Satanism-friendly would have only helped to make that a near-certainty), and the odds that at least one patron present at that time would have been a cultist actually don't seem all that low? Sure, Sid would not have taken kindly once he understood, but the corollary is that the cult could have then identified him as a target a lot earlier?)

Really, looting of recently abandoned estates tends to be frowned upon A LOT - you probably know that plenty of people think using lethal force on anyone looting someone else's property in the wake of a natural disaster is outright commendable. Plus, locals could also suspect them of other undesirable things, like drug smuggling. So, it really doesn't matter if he has no idea about the cult - it only takes ONE patron to call the police and say, "Hey, there are some suspicious blokes from out of town meeting up at the burned-down ruins, mind checking in on that place?" to TOTALLY ruin whatever all three were going for and potentially land all of them in jail as soon as the guns and the lockpicks are found. It may not be a VERY likely risk, but it is still an ENORMOUS downside with basically no upside.

END SPOILER

Lastly, worry not - I would not have committed myself to the effort of going through everything digitized on this website if I did not harbour the ambitions of writing one or more myself. I have certainly learned a lot about what to do (and what not to do) from the authors here, and barring unforeeseen circumstances, I intend to put that to good use, sooner rather than later.

P.S. A reminder to FFProject that one of my posts on this thread is still caught up in the filter?

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