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Gavin Wed Aug 9 03:33:15 2023 Outsider! |
Ariane was a reference to Herman Hesse's Steppenwolf, and was pretty self indulgent admittedly. Aria's lack of tactics are due to the supposed lithe assassin being overtaken by his burly narrator, I wouldn't have any idea what to do either. At the time of the Asssassin's Guild he's supposed to be deep into alcoholic madness, which did not mirror what I was doing in real life at all. I miss the part where he refuses to sleep with anyone else? Does he actually say that? Not endingoing without a massive boss fight would be anticlimactic. Othe rise thanks for taking the time for such detailed analysis, the flaws and mistakes are true enough. |
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Chris Haws Wed Aug 9 15:59:08 2023 Tomb Of The Ancients 
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Far too short, but neat and well-written |
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YARD Thu Aug 10 03:17:24 2023 Outsider! |
Ah, so what you encounter in the valley is basically the opening scene of the Berserk manga in reverse? Likewise, it seems like some of the Defenders' moral code has actually been based on that of Apostles from the same? I must say, one of the things I really like is the way you get a completely different impression of the Defender depending on how you approach him. People really can behave very differently depending on the context, even if the fiction can often forget it. Likewise, Salome is very sympathetic if you approach her acting smart, and is little different from any other vampire if you pick the dumb options. Not that you can't work she is a vampire when she lets you use the library and explicitly refers to the Embrace, of course. That's one reason I do not feel bad about taking on that bonus contract, unless vampires in Titan actually have the self-control to feed without taking everything their prey needs.
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Speaking of
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And yeah, in two out of the three Arielburg endings
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We are literally told just that. Every other time a woman besides Eddora turns up, he either looks on with outright disdain or goes "She reminds me of Eddora", and it gets predictable very quickly. And I suppose my point is that the whole Master of Assassins plotline is cool when you first get there as a reward for finally getting past that difficult cat-and-mouse game, but logically it falls apart once you notice that you are supposedly waging this epic battle vs. the ever-growing law enforcement - all while still sitting in the exact same stinking tavern as always! It's like when in "bigger" video games, they are limited somewhat in the locations they can have the player visit - but here, there are no assets to render, and the written word can describe however many locations you like!
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YARD Thu Aug 10 03:29:23 2023 Outsider! |
A couple more questions/comments.
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Similarly
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I am also interested in what triggers the entry where you start searching for the Defender and find out that Anne and the beggar are now in way better place than before (while you lose 2 Luck). Is it a random dice roll, or is it connected to some of your preceding choices? |
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Gavin Thu Aug 10 03:35:07 2023 Outsider! |
All the material about vampires was ripped wholesale from Vampire The Masquerade. In which context, vampires don't have to obey the prince, the Prince only has as much power as they can enforce, like a medieval prince. I had no norion of Berserk at the time and only know it from TV Tropes now. Otherwise you've put more thought into this than I did, though perhaps our assassin hero is just unimaginative. |
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YARD Thu Aug 10 05:34:15 2023 Outsider! |
Yeah, I am not much of a manga/anime scene connoisseur myself, and I didn't read that much of Berserk (as opposed to about Berserk) but I do know it is probably the most influential manga of the 1990s, and it famously inspired quite a few things in Dark Souls. (As well as much of the original Drakengard, and many other works I can't name right now.) Its creator, Miura, also started on it as a teen - I think he was a little younger than you were at the time of finishing Outsider when its publication began. Predictably, its backstory is very much what we would now call edgy, and the very first scene is of protagonist (named Guts, as his mother was already swinging from a tree along a dozen other people, heavily pregnant, before his actual "birth") fucking a blonde woman who transforms into a monster during the act before he shoots her with a gun hidden in his severed arm's metal stump. You can see why I thought there were parallels! And imo, possibly the most interesting thing about otherwise not-that-distinct medieval Europe dark fantasy is how evil works there. There are four main evil deities there (at least, initially) and they are very reminiscent of Warhammer's Chaos Gods (had to check to make sure Warhammer was first). The thing is, serving any of them in Warhammer will almost certainly cost your sanity soon (along with deformities in some cases) and progression is not only very dangerous for life all along but the ultimate prize, becoming nigh-immortal Demon Prince, may well short-circuit and turn you into a gibbering Chaos Spawn. (serving all four as Chaos Undivided is a little less dangerous, but has no chance of becoming a Prince and will probably turn you into a weak and tormented winged demon once you die.) Instead, all you are asked to do in Berserk is to sacrifice whoever is closest to you. Once you do that, you become an Apostle - a being that cannot die of old age and can either switch between a human and much stronger and more animalistic form at will, or at least always lives as semi-humanoid, semi-animal. Some can also convert humans into other beings loyal to them (Pseudo-Apostles). You are not asked to do anything afterwards - the only "rule" for the Apostles is Do as thou wilt. This is what makes it really disturbing - with such a low entry barrier, there is so much risk anyone you love can do that, and perhaps the pressure to do it first. In all, it is another overlap I found funny. Thank you for the kind words! I hope that by the time I get around to submitting a gamebook of my own, it won't disappoint! |
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Gavin Thu Aug 10 06:22:01 2023 Outsider! |
Baggy Anne and the beggar are always better off, I don't know the other two answers sorry |
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YARD Thu Aug 10 06:30:12 2023 New Day Rising |
So, I think this little adventure might be a bit underrated here - but that is probably because a lot of people are disappointed about the contrast with Outsider!, which you know I find a bit overrated on here. I would certainly say that something like "This gamebook is set in the same world as Outsider!, a century after its events. It does not follow the same style or themes." as opposed to a flat "This is a sequel to Outsider!" would be VERY helpful in managing expectations. Only to a point, granted - some people are just not ever going to be on board with so much 4th wall breaking or will toilet humour and the Silmarillion in the same ref, but that's what it is. I should say that at one point (524?) Kalashnikov is misspelled as Kalashkinov. It's also funny that entering the black dragon's room with that dragon's head still in your inventory somehow fails to automatically trigger combat. Two moments which no-one else seems to have mentioned yet, but which I found interesting. It was a really nice touch when
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Lore-wise
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I wonder what is the main reason why the second part hasn't been digitized in 4 years and counting. Are there some deal-breaker complicated mechanics? Or does FFProject just have a backlog this large. |
| To answer the question of why the second part is not playable online it's just because I haven't got it done yet. It's more awkward than most because the mechanics are much more complicated than the software was made to handle, so there's a certain amount of effort involved in simplifying it and still having the result make sense, and that's what has sapped my resolve and left it half-finished. |
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Gavin Thu Aug 10 07:26:54 2023 New Day Rising |
Possibly the second part isn't very good even by my own admission. Continuing got to the point where it was no longer fun to write. I thought I've spent three years continuously reading and listening to stories about sailing ships, why not write about that? So it goes. |
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Robert Douglas Fri Aug 11 00:59:28 2023 General Chat |
I don't think Fighting Fantasy is in any danger of dying. During the 80's and even early 90's, the gamebook genre dominated the RPG market, alongside tabletop and DM-led groups. The video games market then appeared on the scene that seriously curtailed popularity, thus affecting sales of the original Puffin series. Lone Wolf was no exception. However, while we're still in the video gaming market - which if anything has grown to greater proportions over the last thirty years - FF in fact made a comeback twice during that time via Wizard, and then Scholastic, publishers. Some FF adventures can even be found in the format of interactive digital titles, the most recently developed adapted from Sorcery! series. And then you have fan written contributions and discussions found on sites much like this one. It's hardly likely that written works, literary ideas, video games, music, and movies ever truly die, decades or even centuries from now, as many classics or even lesser known titles/franchises/series will continue to find new fans. Indeed, some might lose their greatness to become more cult status. When Steve and Ian do leave us - much as we all hate the thought of the eventuality! - FF's future would become an estate, very similar to Tolkien's LOTR and other Middle Earth material. By way of further example, many famous actors from years past also have an estate dedicated to managing and even copyright protecting future publishing of their works long after they're gone. I have a biography of James Dean actually compiled and published by the James Dean Estate. His life story told through narrative and a wonderful collection of various photographs. The only problem is that the bookbinders made an error and put a section of pages in the wrong place! It's still a great chronicle, however, and I cherish it. We must not forget that gamebooks also encouraged youngsters to improve their reading, so this factors into the likelihood of FF being around for many years to come. Besides which, alongside Lone Wolf, the series encompassed many titles and so made an indelible mark upon the literary world. |
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YARD Fri Aug 11 12:03:39 2023 Gamebooks |
I was excited when I first saw this conversation topic, but now I realize the last post was 2 years ago, and the initiating post over 3 years ago! Seems like Derek hasn't been able to go ahead with any of those ideas? To be honest, it's really quite impressive that The Project has 56 gamebooks by my count, and practically all of them appear to be original works? Well, Bodies in the Docks is obviously Lovecraftian (though since Lovecraft has always been public domain, it's still a different kind of a phenomenon) and perhaps some are related to the settings of the official Fighting Fantasy books (I really haven't played that many of the official gamebooks) but it is still remarkable that no-one has apparently decided to spin off a more widely familiar setting, and instead all successful works have staked out their own claim. Oh well, perhaps I can be the first, then. I'll keep the setting a secret until my work is done, to avoid raising expectations in case it fails, but I'll say the setting I intend to work on is not any of the ones which were mentioned above. |
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YARD Fri Aug 11 12:25:25 2023 Bloodsworth Bayou
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First won this one a few weeks ago. Decided to try again recently, to see if I can catch any typos or the like (none found to date, unlike a few other works on here, long and short - you have my respect!) and if I can get an alternate way to win. Instead, I have so far discovered several more ways to lose I didn't even suspect existed - all of them quite memorable, to boot. I wonder if anyone else had discovered that getting reduced to 1-2 HP when fighting the Alligator allows you a way to not only continue playing, but even provides you with a cool (if not necessarily helpful) item? That was such an unexpected touch, but I'm glad it's there. In general, I really like the atmosphere here. I mainly wish it was a little longer - perhaps about the length of Golem Gauntlet? Granted, Golem Gauntlet is also almost completely linear, but I think it's achievable when the player apparently walks for hours without much happening in some of the refs, and considering that there whole mirror worlds, but which are simply a short (for the reader) walk to the boss. Someone else had described the combat as "unremarkable" or something earlier on. While this can be interpreted in different ways (i.e. a request for more Outsider-style unblockable enemy abilities, which are a bit of a double-edged sword, and excellent gamebooks like A Princess of Zamarra had functioned fine without them), I would agree that some way to enhance combat power for a fight's duration or get a fighting companion who is not lost in a cutscene would not go amiss. Lastly, I would say that while the optional sequence with the Civil War soldiers is clearly well-intentioned, it's unfortunately the most wooden part by far. Their lines, and your dialogue responses, all feel like you are tweeting at each other from different parts of the country, rather than as something ghosts dead for over 150 years and a tired, cursed, probably wounded man in an unfamiliar area would say on the spot. |
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YARD Sat Aug 12 06:51:59 2023 A Princess Of Zamarra
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Such an excellent work! By now, I have finished 11 gamebooks out of 56 or so that are playable online here, and so far, it is definitely my favourite - and it's not even close! I really love the characterization of essentially everyone (from the fiercely independent-minded orcs to those in the royal court) and the incredible extent of choices you get. I won many times, and I still discover new things on every run! Just now, I found out how useful the Antler can really be, letting you skip a fight I was convinced was mandatory on that path. I love that the attention to detail even extends to something like that minor interaction between the black stone and the magic tooth. I do need to point out a significant continuity issue. Essentially, the Fencing skill is less useful than it should have been, because the rapier you are supposed to have (and which is explicitly mentioned in some refs afterwards) is not actually added to your inventory! Another important continuity issue: sometimes, you get ref 59, the one with this line
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But then Mawrogh is still alive after that. Perhaps it's possible for one to survive that, but shouldn't there at least be a line alluding to that kind of injury? Alternatively, he can only survive when you do everything right to see that happen. It would also be amazing if the "true ending" (and perhaps even some of the "not the best, not the worst" endings) changed slightly if Mawrogh was still alive at the time, but I suppose it would be up to Kieran whether or not to update this. Same as with the issue pointed out in an earlier comment
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To be fair, it IS a pretty unlikely turn of events to have both still alive at the time. After all, you have to
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So, it's easy to see how taking this sequence of events (which requires both specific choices and specific dice rolls to occur) into account was overlooked. I also wonder if
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Either way, what I find really weird is that even Capula is actually a slightly superior opponent to Grauch, who is meant to have incomparably more combat experience. I guess setting Grauch to 9 skill might be way too brutal for 7 Skill runs (and Skill 8 also fits with that Unlucky bad ending you might get from trusting her abilities too much) but what about buffing her Stamina? When you change forms, your Stamina is altered by 4 points: wouldn't this suggest that if Grauch ever ended up getting the ring, she would be reduced to the tiny 3 Stamina? Granted, Zerraz also has only 7 Stamina, but this can at least be described as the consequence of all the scars he has. I think she should have 4 more than now (11), so that she is not unquestionably the weakest member in-game, if not in-narrative, and to make her less of a pushover on her own. You can always say that her calm spear tactics meant she received the least injuries of the (non-playable) orcs assembled. Finally, a couple of typos. 22: Probably "dwarves" rather than "dwarfs"? 127: I believe it should be "sheathes", not "sheaths". 143: There's a missing space after the comma. |
| Thanks once again. You now get a rapier, Mawrogh dies when he is supposed to, you no longer stand alone when Grauch is still alive, and I've fixed the typos (dwarfs is apparently correct though). |
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YARD Sat Aug 12 07:29:10 2023 A Princess Of Zamarra
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Two more typos, both in what I guess is the Laski pathway. 348: Quotation marks are opened but not closed. 379: "another solider". I haven't tried his path before, and it's surprisingly more viable than I thought. Not one but two skills taught by Perrault allow you to win comfortably here, with the main obstacle probably that one skill check which you can only avoid
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and the other one
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YARD Sat Aug 12 11:20:22 2023 Outsider! |
Yes, but my point is that you do not always get to see that ref (866) telling you that they are now better off. I just went for a couple more short runs, and some of them do show it, but the others just skip straight to 671 ("You finally come to the realisation that the your usual contacts are unlikely to know the location of Defender. They are the kind of people whom he usually kills, and thus they would be inclined to avoid him".) Perhaps I might get that yellow text from FFProject telling me the reason why this can happen? I experimented with doing a few things differently, but I'm still not sure what might be behind it. Also, my previous message, about Berserk and its parallels with your work, got held up by the website's word filter, so you probably haven't seen it yet. If you are interested, you can scroll up a bit. Lastly, does the Copper's house not have any windows? I just keep wondering how come you have no other option but to go through the front door - and concurrently, how come fighting an indefinite number of Watchmen outside it does not awaken anyone on the inside. |
| You see 866 only if you fail a hidden PSYCHIC/SKILL test and choose the 'information' option at 881. |
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YARD Sun Aug 13 02:31:18 2023 A Princess Of Zamarra
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Thanks for the prompt fixes! I went ahead with some testing on this run, and I can confirm that the continuity issues with the two Orcs are gone. (Also makes me wish even more that Mawrogh staying alive was reflected in more subsequent refs, since it's now a very specific outcome that's partly down to luck.) The Rapier is now present in your inventory too, but it seems that unlike, say, the Magic Helmet, which always works, you have to press "Use" on the Rapier to get any benefit out of it. You then get the weirdness where Capula charges you because she sees you carrying a rapier, but you'll still be fighting her with a dagger unless you explicitly specify that you would be using a rapier. I almost wonder if the rapier should just replace the dagger outright. After all, I don't think there's any real narrative significance to that specific dagger? |
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YARD Sun Aug 13 11:53:19 2023 Rise Of The Night Creatures |
(It seems like some of my comments might have gotten caught in a word filter or something again. If there are any duplicate submissions, just delete them.) As for the actual typos, I found the following. 229 "The model is fancy and rare; you've seen in a movie about its head moving, slowly you push the head and it partially separates at the neck revealing a red button underneath. Pushing the button causes one of the bookshelves to move aside. Hesitantly, you go down the stone descending stairwell. You arrive in the basement in some dungeon of sort where there are shackles on the wall, benches and dried blood smeared across the walls." I don't quite understand what the part about the movie is meant to say, but I think "stone descending stairwell" should be in a different order? The last sentence would likely be better with benches placed last, but besides that, I think it needs to be "of sorts"? 5 "kneel down you her" ? Plus, "when you turn around to peer at her for one last time" ? 241 "from its owners shoulders" should have an apostrophe somewhere? 114 "with course black thread." 259 "his hair is deshelled" 164 "all you need do" 203 "Examine the the mould of Benjamin Franklin?" 165 "Before your innards start mush from nausea" 188 Missing space. " but they don't.The narrow path soon opens up" 258 "and grans hold of your hind leg." |
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YARD Sun Aug 13 12:35:28 2023 Rise Of The Night Creatures
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Also, 49 "shriekeng" 63 " the candlestick phone on one the tables start to ring." (Both a missing word and a lack of an "s".) 220 "an anomalous necklace with a jade pendent" and 240 "The letters were written on (what?) with what appears to be an old ink pen or quill." "There is nothing else of interest in the letters; wit's just a bunch of " I'll probably find some more if I decide to throw away a dozen or so runs to investigate the trap options in the final stretch. I think that the structure is quite flawed as well. It's one thing that there's an unskippable luck check that can instantly fail you early on: this is a horror story, and it's so early you barely lose any progress, so I'm fine with it. That another luck check closer to midway also outright fails your run, with no option to retake it (unlike another check a little earlier that's ultimately completely meaningless) and no way to find out until much later on is not the best, but it's also nothing I haven't seen before. You may or may not have to pass several checks in rapid succession near the end to win: that's what I did, but perhaps an alternate path would have obviated it. What I really object to is how many things appear to be outright useless. Sometimes, they really are (i.e. the letters seem to do nothing according to the comments) and sometimes they only seem that way. For instance, I didn't recognize that the butcher's knife is actually useful until replaying, because the game doesn't explicitly inform you that its presence is the reason you no longer suffer -2 to Skill in combat. Given the creatures you face early on, I was convinced it's because you fight ethereal beings (the first one while your legs are pinned to the ground as well!) It doesn't help that the game doesn't even bother to acknowledge if you picked it up before fighting the ghouls, as those grating jokes about picking up the forks make no sense if you had already entered the place with a butcher's knife. It similarly doesn't help that pick cannot be used as a weapon, for no apparent reason, and is limited to just one thing. For whatever reason, you can't use it on the wraith (still get that stupid message about grabbing an endtable), can't charge the gargoyles with it even though a mining tool with an occult reference would seem like the perfect tool for the job, and can't try to bring down the burgundy doors with it. Seriously, is there even any way of going through those doors? That would seem to be a job for the skeleton key, but it's either completely useless, or is at most needed in a path you do not have to take to escape. It doesn't help that the writing for the burgundy doors is quite confusing. 178 "The doors are locked and the hallway continues further down but a large iron gate blocks your way." Which hallway? Is that the hallway past the doors? If so, how can you even see it to the gate through the locked doors? Or is the gate in front of the doors, or somewhere to the side of them? Then why don't you see it from the starting position itself? |
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YARD Sun Aug 13 12:36:31 2023 Rise Of The Night Creatures |
Oh, and I really wouldn't have guessed that according to the comments here
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Since not only do you find one of the letters there, but that fight is honestly the best one in the game (even with that rather unfair special feature they have) and discovering it's best to just ignore it outright feels sad. As it was, I just tried the combinations one by one until hitting the right one. If some of the refs were meant to explain which would be the decoy and which would be real, I clearly missed the hint, but I suspect there weren't any. Either way, I wish you actually needed those letters
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for the final confrontation, because the actual item which wins you the game is so ludicrously silly that even the ref introducing it has to acknowledge what an out-of-place deus ex machina it is. It makes the lack of context behind half the encounters (half are obviously connected to the "Background", and the others are completely random and could have been in any horror story.) Some refs also have one of those things I really hate in playable stories, and that is sudden "auto-choices". Like that ref where the character just pulls a red lever without our input and predictably suffers for it. Like the neighbouring ref 5 - possibly the longest one in the game, and ludicrously non-interactive - several things which are treated as choices/skill checks/combat encounters elsewhere are suddenly carried through on "cutscene power". Not even a good cutscene either, as the player character seems to forget all about the other undead he encountered moments earlier. The "schooner" room has a similar, though less blatant, issue. Lastly, there is the weird inconsistency in what does and doesn't damage you. Apparently, getting nauseated by smell of a decaying corpse/murderous feast is enough to do physical damage, but actually getting stabbed with a knife in the thigh or in the face is not. Who knew! Sorry for the tone of all this. I actually really like the part where you finally make it out to the garden, and everything preceding to it was quite close to being great with only a few different choices but that's what it is. |
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YARD Sun Aug 13 12:40:03 2023 Rise Of The Night Creatures
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I am not sure if my first message got caught in a filter or just never went through because of wordcount, so trying again. The key reason why I wasn't really a fan of this one is because I think it has the weakest writing style of all the gamebooks I have seen here. (And I have completed 12 so far.) While the events described are often interesting enough, the way they are described too often kills all the mood. Consider the very first ref. 1 "Strangely, from inside everything looks polished and lived in. Nothing has a speck of dust upon it. The grey granite and scarlet tiled floor is waxed and has the most beautiful mosaic of a pentagram and goat's face worked into it, there are long Turkish weaves on either side of the grand Peruvian marble stairwell and the colossal brass chandelier has nearly a hundred lit candles in it. The home has no obvious electricity only candles, lanterns, and lamps which give the luxurious foyer an ominous yet soothing atmosphere. Nice sight but it's still eerie, even the smirking gargoyles that are perched on their spot at the base of the stairwell watch your every move. Their eyes seem to be made out of rubies and sparkle lifelike in the candlelight. 35 Just as you're pondering which one to investigate the chandelier above starts to rotate slowly as if some breeze is coming in from somewhere, is it a gentle wind or is it something else moving it? There is an unnerving feeling about this place and you wonder if the belladonna is really that important, but do you really want to live your life as a werewolf? Quietly you step into the center of the room and speculate where you're going to search first. The door swings open at the exact time you go to ram it again and fly head-first back out into the lit foyer, tripping to the floor, carrying the chair and all! The dragon doors close again all by themselves behind you. Not sure if you're spooked by now but you decide if staying in this house is such a good idea, it's haunted that's for sure. But who would believe you? Well, at least you're no longer in the parlour. You get back to your feet and brush yourself off." What's with all those run-on sentences?! What's with the way they suddenly break the train of thought and turn to another topic?! It's the writing style of a casual conversation, and it totally kills the mood. And sadly, it's far from the only example. 201 "When you open the glass doors of the curio the dried up old bones all come toppling out and cascade onto your feet. You do find a steel key though and your heart takes a leap, you have found the key to get out of this parlour. However upon trying the key you discover that it does not in fact open the door to the room." I feel that better-written gamebooks would have devoted three paragraphs to this whole event, be they long or short. One to convey your shock at the grizzly discovery, one to show where you actually found the key, and the last one for your joy turning to despair. Here, it's condensed to a jumbled mess. The character's heart may take a leap, but it's hard to feel anything. 203 "A majority of the papers date back to the year 1910. The owner of this house is in arrears. He has crudely scribbled over the amounts he's in debt with. Then there are some letters dating to the current times of the 21st century and you wonder what this could mean? The guy is obviously not a vampire and couldn't live that long? Perhaps you wonder since the same name is on each letter that perhaps his father was called by the same name? The first name is scratched out and all that remains is the surname Crimson. There is a letter written by this so called Crimson as well addressed to his wife." Besides the same terrible run-on sentences, there's the added absurdity of a guy who knows beyond doubt that he himself is a werewolf, and who had just dealt with another undead disregarding the existence of vampires for no apparent reason. I think the worst run-on sentence is actually here. 30 "You enter the combination and the portcullis painfully lifts on its rusty gears and goes back down once you're through, now you find yourself in the unfinished basement of the house. After your experience, you really want out of this house and the light switch doesn't work down here so you rely on your mini flashlight." What is this?! Perhaps the author is not a native English speaker, but then again, neither am I. Further, I believe apps/websites like Hemingway were already around by the time this story was written. Even the final few refs on the way to the intended ending can have rough sentences like this (non-spoilery) one. 232 "Just as you're checking what contents you still have on you you hear the distinct crude noise of a chainsaw behind you, glancing over your shoulder, your heart takes a leap." |
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